2. The context of what I said was that an uninformed choice is a false choice.

awesome…programming is awesome…programming is…

I think someone is an expert (no double quotes) when he proves himself in the marketplace of ideas. This leaves room for (but grants no special right to) Travis, Gary, Ben, you, and me.

[credibility slips a little]

I agree with Ben G’s stance. Take a look at the iSchool Initiative (ischoolInitiative.com).

Travis Allen came up with this idea as a teenager… Does that mean his ideas aren’t worthy of being shouted from every hilltop, conference and webinar this side of cyber space (if cyber space has sides)?

Personally, I have found a lot of so-called “experts” (in the way Ben G suggests Gary refers to them) to be out of touch with the reality of classroom life, and not worthy of the status afforded to them by their credentials. I in no means transfer this to Gary or any others taking part in this discussion, but poor “experts” are out their soaking up education funding, pushing paper and thrusting standards and nationalized curricula in our faces.

Not all “experts” are worth listening to, and not all those worth listening to are “experts”!

NB: please take note of my use of double quotation marks!

Your original post took issue with Gary’s belief in experts (without qualification). You claimed that the need for experts is “proven defunct, is rife with complication.”

Your most recent comment, turns this on its head. It seems that you now argue (correctly in my view) that experts are, in fact, needed and that many teachers (like those in this discussion) are experts (whether or not they have been properly recognized as such by elitists (Gary?).

Ben W. – Your focus on good teaching is spot on. It just isn’t helpful (or honest) to pit traditional content, taught badly vs. new content taught well.

First, I want to make sure that it’s clear that I’m not anti-programming-in-schools. I definitely think that programming has a lot of value in the school environment. I’m anti-mandating-all-schools-teach-it.

Why? Number 1- When a content area becomes commonplace in our school system the life is often sucked out of it. There’ll suddently be “programming standards,” and state exams. As Seymour Papert, School reacts to threats to the status quo in a similar manner as the body reacts to an infection: it attacks then assimilates. How long after programming is taught in all schools does it become it’s own class complete with multiple choice exams (#57. To make the turtle in turtle art draw icicles, what is your first step? a. Repeat [100], b….)? I realize this ‘s a bit of an exaggeration, but perhaps programming is much more effective if it’s snuck into the classroom through the back door instead of forced through the front. Perhaps the best way to do this is to educate teachers on how programming might be a great addition to their classrooms (calling ColleenK).

Number 2- I worry about making anything mandatory for all students. Sylvia, you and I seem to be on the same page when you’re discussing that deciding a school’s curriculum should be a process that includes students, teachers, and the community, and that it should be something that is addressed regularly. However, you also made the point at CMK that students shouldn’t be given the choice whether to experience programming or not. I’m pretty sure your line of reasoning (correct me if I’m wrong) follows the thought that programming might be considered boring or nerdy for students who haven’t ever experienced it, and so they might choose it (similar lines of reasoning might apply to teachers as well). I really want to agree with you here, but this feels a lot like the logic we use when we require students to take the eccentric courses you described in your first comment. Which all brings us back to the more difficult question: How do we decide what schools should teach?

A few other questions that came to mind as I read through these comments:
1) Is programming when it’s taught well superior to other content areas when they’re taught well? In many of the comments describing all the great attributes programming helps students learn, I think you could replace the word “programming” with almost any content area, assuming it’s well taught.
2) Is programming necessary to exercise control over a computer now-a-days? I’ve read numerous ed-techie blogs who’ve said the great thing about “Web 2.0″ is that it means you don’t have to learn how to program to exercise control over a computer.
3) What’s the record for number of comments on bengrey.com? Have we surpassed it?

Again, I’m not anti-programming. I’m just new to the “programming-is-so-awesome!” viewpoint and am working through some things in my mind.