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	<title>Comments on: What if&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://bengrey.com/blog/2008/11/what-if/</link>
	<description>Standing on the verge of a technologically educational revolution.</description>
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		<title>By: Carl Anderson</title>
		<link>http://bengrey.com/blog/2008/11/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-251</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 06:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bengrey.com/blog/?p=46#comment-251</guid>
		<description>I wish I had come upon this discussion back in November.  I really like the thought and tenor of these comments.

I think the ideas in Clayton Christensen&#039;s books The Innovator&#039;s Dilema and Disrupting Class are very relevant here.  He argues that large scale change is never possible in large established systems.  Therefore, our current school system cannot change.  The change has to happen through migration.  As learning alternatives become more suited to fit the needs of a now relatively silent majority the scales will tip and we will see a mass exodus of students from our traditional schools to find their education elsewhere.  What is going to tip the scales?  Will it be online schools as many have suggested?  I tend to think this may have a part but most online schools I have seen are merely traditional schools put on the internet.  There is nothing all that progressive about them.  Is it charter schools?  Or rather a particular brand of charter school?  Perhaps.  Or is it unschooling?  The technology is certainly there for students to adequately educate themselves with the aid of online and electronic resources.  These technologies will only improve as time wares on.  

Schools have not always been as they currently are today.  Sure, our schools today look a lot like 19th century schools but even though they have had a long run there is historic precedent for a nation or world to change the way the business of education happens. If we narrow our view of the history of education to the last 200 years we are missing too much.  There were times in our past where apprenticeships were the number one method of education.  How did we make the shift?  Was it through necessity?  Or was there some other force that made us make that shift?

I see two major forces that shape how and why we educate our children the way we do:  Economic and Political or rather Hamiltonian and Jeffersonian.  The last major shift, at least in the US came when we decided we needed an educated citizenry and that the state should sponsor schooling.  This was coupled with the need for an educated workforce.  Our current economic troubles speak to one of these founding actors.  Perhaps one result of the current economic disaster will be a forced change.  People (parents included) may be open under the current and near future economic climate to make some concessions about our education system and become open to more progressive approaches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish I had come upon this discussion back in November.  I really like the thought and tenor of these comments.</p>
<p>I think the ideas in Clayton Christensen&#8217;s books The Innovator&#8217;s Dilema and Disrupting Class are very relevant here.  He argues that large scale change is never possible in large established systems.  Therefore, our current school system cannot change.  The change has to happen through migration.  As learning alternatives become more suited to fit the needs of a now relatively silent majority the scales will tip and we will see a mass exodus of students from our traditional schools to find their education elsewhere.  What is going to tip the scales?  Will it be online schools as many have suggested?  I tend to think this may have a part but most online schools I have seen are merely traditional schools put on the internet.  There is nothing all that progressive about them.  Is it charter schools?  Or rather a particular brand of charter school?  Perhaps.  Or is it unschooling?  The technology is certainly there for students to adequately educate themselves with the aid of online and electronic resources.  These technologies will only improve as time wares on.  </p>
<p>Schools have not always been as they currently are today.  Sure, our schools today look a lot like 19th century schools but even though they have had a long run there is historic precedent for a nation or world to change the way the business of education happens. If we narrow our view of the history of education to the last 200 years we are missing too much.  There were times in our past where apprenticeships were the number one method of education.  How did we make the shift?  Was it through necessity?  Or was there some other force that made us make that shift?</p>
<p>I see two major forces that shape how and why we educate our children the way we do:  Economic and Political or rather Hamiltonian and Jeffersonian.  The last major shift, at least in the US came when we decided we needed an educated citizenry and that the state should sponsor schooling.  This was coupled with the need for an educated workforce.  Our current economic troubles speak to one of these founding actors.  Perhaps one result of the current economic disaster will be a forced change.  People (parents included) may be open under the current and near future economic climate to make some concessions about our education system and become open to more progressive approaches.</p>
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		<title>By: Technology, Education, &#38; The Future &#187; Scholarship in the Digital Age</title>
		<link>http://bengrey.com/blog/2008/11/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-118</link>
		<dc:creator>Technology, Education, &#38; The Future &#187; Scholarship in the Digital Age</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Dec 2008 03:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bengrey.com/blog/?p=46#comment-118</guid>
		<description>[...] Open Education idea, with folks like Ben Grey, Michael Wesch, and Sarah Robbins as some of the distinct voices discussing the needed changes in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Open Education idea, with folks like Ben Grey, Michael Wesch, and Sarah Robbins as some of the distinct voices discussing the needed changes in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Education - The Importance of Questioning the System &#8212; Open Education</title>
		<link>http://bengrey.com/blog/2008/11/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-95</link>
		<dc:creator>Education - The Importance of Questioning the System &#8212; Open Education</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Dec 2008 02:10:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bengrey.com/blog/?p=46#comment-95</guid>
		<description>[...] As to Grey&#8217;s ongoing look at education, we turn to a recent post, What If.  &#8220;What if we stopped for just a moment, took a step back, and asked why?&#8221; asks Grey. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] As to Grey&#8217;s ongoing look at education, we turn to a recent post, What If.  &#8220;What if we stopped for just a moment, took a step back, and asked why?&#8221; asks Grey. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Reform school II &#124; Learning &#38; Teaching</title>
		<link>http://bengrey.com/blog/2008/11/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-68</link>
		<dc:creator>Reform school II &#124; Learning &#38; Teaching</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Dec 2008 14:40:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bengrey.com/blog/?p=46#comment-68</guid>
		<description>[...] pondering questions like this, I stumbled upon this post, What if &#8230;. Boy do I have lot to learn about the history of education. Thanks for the timeline, Ben, a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] pondering questions like this, I stumbled upon this post, What if &#8230;. Boy do I have lot to learn about the history of education. Thanks for the timeline, Ben, a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: RYErnest</title>
		<link>http://bengrey.com/blog/2008/11/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-48</link>
		<dc:creator>RYErnest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 11:19:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bengrey.com/blog/?p=46#comment-48</guid>
		<description>Nice post u have here :D Added to my RSS reader</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post u have here <img src='http://bengrey.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' />  Added to my RSS reader</p>
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		<title>By: Ira Socol</title>
		<link>http://bengrey.com/blog/2008/11/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-47</link>
		<dc:creator>Ira Socol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 18:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bengrey.com/blog/?p=46#comment-47</guid>
		<description>reading Doug and Susan&#039;s comments above, I am forced to wonder whether it is ever possible to separate &quot;education&quot; from the greater intentions of society. When political commentators describe the US as &quot;essentially a center-right nation&quot; they are being extraordinarily &quot;kind.&quot; It is not that at all. The US Democratic Party is far to the right of every European &#039;Christian Democratic&#039; right-wing party. The US is as religiously fundamentalist as any Middle Eastern state. And US education, from the top (PhD programs) on down are the most conservative in &quot;the west.&quot; Education is conceived of as only about transmission of a very conservative culture.

Thus, even left-leaning US education is based in a &#039;not-so-hidden&#039; curriculum dedicated to preserving the social order. We see, for example, the least interesting, most formalised theses on the planet coming from US grad schools. We see the greatest fidelity to the industrial processing view of research. We see the most emphasis placed on compliance - attendance, silly assignments, in US higher education. And all of these things filter down all the way to kindergarten and even pre-school, where US politicians of every persuasion believe in abusing very young children with strict academics.

So, what is wrong with American schools is, essentially, what is wrong with America. Stuck in notions of an elitist Republic which last seemed &quot;revolutionary and democratic&quot; in the run up to the French Revolution, trapped by a conservative religious base which is afforded as much or more influence here than equivalent movements in Israel or Iran, and trusting far too much in our own myths, we have accepted beliefs which elimate our chances for progress.

What we see in our schools is symptom, not cause.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>reading Doug and Susan&#8217;s comments above, I am forced to wonder whether it is ever possible to separate &#8220;education&#8221; from the greater intentions of society. When political commentators describe the US as &#8220;essentially a center-right nation&#8221; they are being extraordinarily &#8220;kind.&#8221; It is not that at all. The US Democratic Party is far to the right of every European &#8216;Christian Democratic&#8217; right-wing party. The US is as religiously fundamentalist as any Middle Eastern state. And US education, from the top (PhD programs) on down are the most conservative in &#8220;the west.&#8221; Education is conceived of as only about transmission of a very conservative culture.</p>
<p>Thus, even left-leaning US education is based in a &#8216;not-so-hidden&#8217; curriculum dedicated to preserving the social order. We see, for example, the least interesting, most formalised theses on the planet coming from US grad schools. We see the greatest fidelity to the industrial processing view of research. We see the most emphasis placed on compliance &#8211; attendance, silly assignments, in US higher education. And all of these things filter down all the way to kindergarten and even pre-school, where US politicians of every persuasion believe in abusing very young children with strict academics.</p>
<p>So, what is wrong with American schools is, essentially, what is wrong with America. Stuck in notions of an elitist Republic which last seemed &#8220;revolutionary and democratic&#8221; in the run up to the French Revolution, trapped by a conservative religious base which is afforded as much or more influence here than equivalent movements in Israel or Iran, and trusting far too much in our own myths, we have accepted beliefs which elimate our chances for progress.</p>
<p>What we see in our schools is symptom, not cause.</p>
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		<title>By: susan carley</title>
		<link>http://bengrey.com/blog/2008/11/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-46</link>
		<dc:creator>susan carley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 14:13:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bengrey.com/blog/?p=46#comment-46</guid>
		<description>You have addressed many forces that keep the educational system stuck where it is, but I think everyone left out one:  Parents.   Many parents I meet expect that their son&#039;s or daughter&#039;s education will look like theirs.  And I&#039;m sure you have all met the parents who are reliving their high school experience through their children.  They want their children to learn the same content driven curriculum and be tested in the same rote memory kind of manner.  If they see something different, they accuse the teacher (department, school) of being incompetent.  It is understandable.  They feel they had a good education and are successful because of it, so they feel it is what their kids need.  It is also understandable because the parents job is not to keep up with the current state of education and really think about its purpose.  To many, education is still a means to a job.  We have a lot of work to do outside of our school walls to make the case for the changes that need to take place.

That said, I still stick with the old idea that the purpose of education is to create citizens that will keep the ideals of the country going -- an educated citizenry.  That does not mean keep things the same -- but to  use critical thinking, global awareness, current (now technological) skills and empathy to continue to move the country forward to its potential.

&quot;Ask not what your country can do for you . . .&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have addressed many forces that keep the educational system stuck where it is, but I think everyone left out one:  Parents.   Many parents I meet expect that their son&#8217;s or daughter&#8217;s education will look like theirs.  And I&#8217;m sure you have all met the parents who are reliving their high school experience through their children.  They want their children to learn the same content driven curriculum and be tested in the same rote memory kind of manner.  If they see something different, they accuse the teacher (department, school) of being incompetent.  It is understandable.  They feel they had a good education and are successful because of it, so they feel it is what their kids need.  It is also understandable because the parents job is not to keep up with the current state of education and really think about its purpose.  To many, education is still a means to a job.  We have a lot of work to do outside of our school walls to make the case for the changes that need to take place.</p>
<p>That said, I still stick with the old idea that the purpose of education is to create citizens that will keep the ideals of the country going &#8212; an educated citizenry.  That does not mean keep things the same &#8212; but to  use critical thinking, global awareness, current (now technological) skills and empathy to continue to move the country forward to its potential.</p>
<p>&#8220;Ask not what your country can do for you . . .&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Sawyer</title>
		<link>http://bengrey.com/blog/2008/11/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Sawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 03:21:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bengrey.com/blog/?p=46#comment-45</guid>
		<description>I had a couple of thoughts while reading your post and the responses.  First of all I find it interesting that we are kind of trying to grasp at the Progressive Ed movement again utilizing catch words such as engaged learning and constructivism.  Goals 2000 in the late 90&#039;s tried to use technology to bring back these ideas.  I think it was more Fad than anything.  Secondly, what&#039;s the goal of education?  Shouldn&#039;t there be more than one goal.  As kids move into the adult world they go in many different directions.  Yet, our education system is based on the idea that everyone will go to college and enter the business world. What about those who will not go college?  Or is the goal for every kid to go to college?  If so I don&#039;t think it&#039;s a feasible goal.  In one of the post above  I read &quot;...schools, and teacher education, are run by people who have succeeded in the system. In their hearts they do not really understand the failures.&quot;  These are the people that by default are going to do well if the current system continues.  What we need to figure out is how to educate those who do not fit into this system.  How can we engage them so that school does not become a place they dislike or even fear on some level?  How do we engage them so that they are productive, contributing citizens?  Is that the goal?  The goal of producing life long learners is also falling short in the current system. A kid who sees school as a negative place is going to be hard pressed to go to collage or become a life long learner   This is the part that educators have a difficult time understanding because school is not a negative place for them.  So three goals for all students, even the ones that won&#039;t do well in the current system.

1. Help students become productive contributing citizens.
2. Help students become life-long learners.
3. Help students learn the skills they need in order to problem solve. ( I didn&#039;t mention this earlier but we have all seen the &quot;Did You Know&quot; videos and we all know this is becoming a necessity.)

Now, how do we accomplish these goals????</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a couple of thoughts while reading your post and the responses.  First of all I find it interesting that we are kind of trying to grasp at the Progressive Ed movement again utilizing catch words such as engaged learning and constructivism.  Goals 2000 in the late 90&#8242;s tried to use technology to bring back these ideas.  I think it was more Fad than anything.  Secondly, what&#8217;s the goal of education?  Shouldn&#8217;t there be more than one goal.  As kids move into the adult world they go in many different directions.  Yet, our education system is based on the idea that everyone will go to college and enter the business world. What about those who will not go college?  Or is the goal for every kid to go to college?  If so I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a feasible goal.  In one of the post above  I read &#8220;&#8230;schools, and teacher education, are run by people who have succeeded in the system. In their hearts they do not really understand the failures.&#8221;  These are the people that by default are going to do well if the current system continues.  What we need to figure out is how to educate those who do not fit into this system.  How can we engage them so that school does not become a place they dislike or even fear on some level?  How do we engage them so that they are productive, contributing citizens?  Is that the goal?  The goal of producing life long learners is also falling short in the current system. A kid who sees school as a negative place is going to be hard pressed to go to collage or become a life long learner   This is the part that educators have a difficult time understanding because school is not a negative place for them.  So three goals for all students, even the ones that won&#8217;t do well in the current system.</p>
<p>1. Help students become productive contributing citizens.<br />
2. Help students become life-long learners.<br />
3. Help students learn the skills they need in order to problem solve. ( I didn&#8217;t mention this earlier but we have all seen the &#8220;Did You Know&#8221; videos and we all know this is becoming a necessity.)</p>
<p>Now, how do we accomplish these goals????</p>
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		<title>By: Ira Socol</title>
		<link>http://bengrey.com/blog/2008/11/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-44</link>
		<dc:creator>Ira Socol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 00:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bengrey.com/blog/?p=46#comment-44</guid>
		<description>First thought - you should really read this blog post from one of my favorite bloggers...
http://museumtwo.blogspot.com/2008/11/where-im-coming-from.html

Next - My own post about the motivations of our education system, that is, why we&#039;re not actually interested in change...
http://speedchange.blogspot.com/2008/04/not-getting-to-universal-design.html

And finally - I try to tell the future teachers whom I get to &quot;teach&quot; that everything about our educational system is a construct based on (a) Protestant Christianity (the books, the room shape, the sense of literacy, the schedule), (b) market capitalism (the curriculum, grading, the intended purpose), and (c) industrialism (the idea of grades, of one process for all, of assessment). And I suggest that we will not create any meaningful change unless we begin to seriously doubt the philosophies which underlie those constructions.

I was lucky enough to attend a &quot;School Without Walls&quot; alternative high school. No grades, very few classes, no fixed schedule, no curricular requirements, no need to do anything at all within the school. So I have seen it work, and I have seen it work for the widest variety of kids.

But I also know the problem - schools, and teacher education, are run by people who have succeeded in the system. In their hearts they do not really understand the failures.

My first suggestion is that PhD programs in education use affirmative action to change our future leadership. 50% of the next generation of Education PhDs should be the failures, the special ed kids, the drop outs, the &quot;just got bys&quot; - That is the group which would bring urgency to these conversations. That is the group which can begin to imagine something completely different, because &quot;we&quot; know the costs of the status quo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First thought &#8211; you should really read this blog post from one of my favorite bloggers&#8230;<br />
<a href="http://museumtwo.blogspot.com/2008/11/where-im-coming-from.html" rel="nofollow">http://museumtwo.blogspot.com/2008/11/where-im-coming-from.html</a></p>
<p>Next &#8211; My own post about the motivations of our education system, that is, why we&#8217;re not actually interested in change&#8230;<br />
<a href="http://speedchange.blogspot.com/2008/04/not-getting-to-universal-design.html" rel="nofollow">http://speedchange.blogspot.com/2008/04/not-getting-to-universal-design.html</a></p>
<p>And finally &#8211; I try to tell the future teachers whom I get to &#8220;teach&#8221; that everything about our educational system is a construct based on (a) Protestant Christianity (the books, the room shape, the sense of literacy, the schedule), (b) market capitalism (the curriculum, grading, the intended purpose), and (c) industrialism (the idea of grades, of one process for all, of assessment). And I suggest that we will not create any meaningful change unless we begin to seriously doubt the philosophies which underlie those constructions.</p>
<p>I was lucky enough to attend a &#8220;School Without Walls&#8221; alternative high school. No grades, very few classes, no fixed schedule, no curricular requirements, no need to do anything at all within the school. So I have seen it work, and I have seen it work for the widest variety of kids.</p>
<p>But I also know the problem &#8211; schools, and teacher education, are run by people who have succeeded in the system. In their hearts they do not really understand the failures.</p>
<p>My first suggestion is that PhD programs in education use affirmative action to change our future leadership. 50% of the next generation of Education PhDs should be the failures, the special ed kids, the drop outs, the &#8220;just got bys&#8221; &#8211; That is the group which would bring urgency to these conversations. That is the group which can begin to imagine something completely different, because &#8220;we&#8221; know the costs of the status quo.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Meech</title>
		<link>http://bengrey.com/blog/2008/11/what-if/comment-page-1/#comment-40</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Meech</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 21:42:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bengrey.com/blog/?p=46#comment-40</guid>
		<description>What if there is no perfect model?  What if the perfect model seems to always be created after the great need for that model?  Needs cause change but they tend to have new needs when the change can make the most impact!  

I agree that many of us are too close to the issue which clouds judgment, but many of us have a better ability to filter and see beyond the &quot;now&quot;.   In my personal opinion, most of the causes preventing us from truly making change are not educational but political.  I truly believe education would change quickly if it were not for the overwhelming outside influences that are identified by Paul Vallas.

Check out George Smoot on the Design of the Universe.  He talks a lot about the problems of seeing the universe as a whole because of where we are at inside of it!  

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;source=web&amp;ct=res&amp;cd=1&amp;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ted.com%2Findex.php%2Ftalks%2Fgeorge_smoot_on_the_design_of_the_universe.html&amp;ei=2sEtScjRMZzENIzqiJcL&amp;usg=AFQjCNGhVGUQxOUn1MB8XFPDHXMpCDo60g&amp;sig2=58ptVRr_2LqntNyTA76Aiw</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if there is no perfect model?  What if the perfect model seems to always be created after the great need for that model?  Needs cause change but they tend to have new needs when the change can make the most impact!  </p>
<p>I agree that many of us are too close to the issue which clouds judgment, but many of us have a better ability to filter and see beyond the &#8220;now&#8221;.   In my personal opinion, most of the causes preventing us from truly making change are not educational but political.  I truly believe education would change quickly if it were not for the overwhelming outside influences that are identified by Paul Vallas.</p>
<p>Check out George Smoot on the Design of the Universe.  He talks a lot about the problems of seeing the universe as a whole because of where we are at inside of it!  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&#038;source=web&#038;ct=res&#038;cd=1&#038;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ted.com%2Findex.php%2Ftalks%2Fgeorge_smoot_on_the_design_of_the_universe.html&#038;ei=2sEtScjRMZzENIzqiJcL&#038;usg=AFQjCNGhVGUQxOUn1MB8XFPDHXMpCDo60g&#038;sig2=58ptVRr_2LqntNyTA76Aiw" rel="nofollow">http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&#038;source=web&#038;ct=res&#038;cd=1&#038;url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ted.com%2Findex.php%2Ftalks%2Fgeorge_smoot_on_the_design_of_the_universe.html&#038;ei=2sEtScjRMZzENIzqiJcL&#038;usg=AFQjCNGhVGUQxOUn1MB8XFPDHXMpCDo60g&#038;sig2=58ptVRr_2LqntNyTA76Aiw</a></p>
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